Category: Getting to Know You
So I was checking out the "Braille Menus" post on the Daily Living Board and it seems that there are a lot of blind people out there whos braille skills suck.
Wondering if there are any of you blind people out there that actually do not know braille?
And why have you not learned it?
Yeah, I know what you mean. Those kinds of people irks me too. Come on all you blind people! For god sake! You're blind! Not stupid! Why can't you people learn how to drive and read street signs and stuff? Pisses me off.
First, I have to say that I'm a braille adict. Sure, I use technology as do all of us who are here, but there will never be anything to replace the immediacy of braille when you need to label something, or your battery dies in your notetaker, or you're dining out, and are by yourself, and you have a braille menu available. Braille is another tool in the arsenal that makes us able to really function on a more equal playing field with our sighted counterparts. Having said that, I do understand why a good number of people don't learn or maintain their braille skills. We have so many choices in how we learn and how we get information that many people believe braille to be obselete. I'm not one of those. The good news is that in my work as a rehab technologist, people going from high school to college often ask for notetakers with a braille display, or a separate braille display. This trend is up, at least where I work.
Good topic. Thanks for posting.
Lou
I agree with the last post. I think all blind people should learn Braille and use it often.
I'd be completely lost without Braille, but I've noticed a trend in blind people not wanting to learn it. Doesn't make any sense to me.
It makes no sense to me either, Brooke, and it leads to some awful spellers!
um, why does it piss you off? lol surely you have better things to worry about. How the hell does my not likeing braille affect you? I can read it, but don't like it at all. But that in no way should affect you, unless your a drama king and sit and worry about what everyone else is doing?
I'm confuzzled as to what driving and reading street signs has to do with reading braille? What are you going to do get out of the car and read each sign? Lmao!
Your assuming that blind people can't be literate with out braille or that it 's worth there time to learn to read. If a blind person has other problems such as a mental disability maybe they should focus on things like being able to live independently instead of reading a braille book? If your 70 years old and just went blind why should you bother learning braille when reading print has given you a foundation of literacy and you could spend that time learning to live independently?
I think that every blind person should learn braille even if they decide to not use it. It has saved me from walking in to the wrong classroom on the first day so many times, and helps a tun in math. I rather label things in braille because, I don't know about you guys, but I really have a hard time remembering what that square dot is, and then that small round dot. It helps with spelling, and my spelling isn't all that great because I end up looking up words a lot. I can't imagine how aweful my spelling would be without it. If every sighted person has to learn print, then every blind person should learn braille.
Look...even if you're 70 and have recently become blind with a sprinkle of mental issues you should make an effort to learn braille. I take classes at a facility where there are a lot of people like that who will not make an effort to learn and they're really annoying.
There is a vending machine in the cafeteria and everything on it is labeled...the contents of the machine and their corresponding letters and numbers. I, a braille reader, can quickly make my selection and be on my way...unless I'm stuck behind a blind person who can't read. The person is usually screaming for help and help usually doesn't come so they just stand there and wait, or they give up and just randomly choose something even if it's something they didn't want.
So learn to read! Stop being bitter and holding on to print because you can't use it anymore because your eyeballs don't function!
First you haven't just gone blind so you aren't in a position to judge those people who have recently gone blind. Second the real world doesn't have vending machines labeled with braille everywhere, if it did you may have a point but people shouldn't learn Braille just to make you happy.
i haven't been blind all that long. I did learn braille a few years ago. but it's used so little, I don't remember a lot of contractions and stuff from grade two. I'm sure you that are judging blind people for not using or learning braille, are the same that boo hoo about how sighted people judge you! a bit hipicritical! What other people do or don't do, is up to them!
Everyone has there own reasons for not learning or using braille. That doesn't make them a stupid person or however you worded it!stupid statements like that is what makes people look stupid!
learning braille made me illiterate. i was a print user, and due to cerribral paulsie, could not read braille to an acceptable speed or standard due to nerve damage. so the pc gave me back my literacy, as i worked in print till age 11, and had a reading age of 14 then. and i wish braille was on vending machines in the UK, it ain't, so we's fucked.
No, people who do not choose to read braille aren't necissarily stupid, but your opinion certainly makes you look that way. There are physiological reasons for some people as well. For example, I've worked with a few consumers with diabetic neuropathy, who do not have the tactual acuity to be able to read braille. It has nothing to do with their lack of ability, lack of willingness to try, and they certainly weren't stupid. We have simply devised other tactile labeling systems to work with this. The fishbourn method being one of them. I'm glad your knowing braille makes you feel supperior though, even if your view of reality is about as lopsided as Feona Apple and Rosey O'donnal on a seesaw. Please, take your retarted, uneducated opinions, and ram them right up your ass where your head already must be. Ah, I feel better now.
well said my leg humping scottie dog! lol
Also, why the hell is this in the getting to know you board? That doesn't make much sense. As for Braille, I couldn't live without it, but I'm not gonna pass judgment on someone if they don't know it unless they haven't come up with another way to work around it. For example, a totally blind person who doesn't know Braille and has no other system for identifying things is never going to be independent, and that's not cool. Even then, it should be their choice, and I suppose if they want to mooch off the government and/or friends and family, that's their choice. There are plenty of sighted people who are illiterate too, and it's sad, but not something that you or I can change, so why pass judgment on it?
Look, Trampezoid is right. Unless there are extenuating circumstances why a person should not learn Braille, or print for that matter, I think the person should make an effort to learn it. You don't need to be a perfect Braille reader in this high-tech world, but why not learn to use labels and take advantage of Braille signage if you have the ability to do so?
I don't think that blind people who choose to not learn braille are stupid...just stubborn. I feel like the ones I've encountered don't feel braille is important when it really is.
And of course I care about what sighted people think of me as a blind person...I've encountered enough blind people that seem to not care and their behavior in social situations sucks.
exactly you think. Who are you to say who does or doesn't learn braille? there are plenty of other means out there to label things, read book, or whatever else you use braille for! Like I said I do know it, and don't really use it. That don't make me less independent than you!
no matter which way you look at it, it's not right to look down on someone just because they didn't choose to learn braille. Most people that don't know braille are the ones that went blind later in life! they have more to worry about than Braille. Like dealing with it for one. They sure don't need people like you looking down on them, hwen there trying to deal themselves!
I didn't used to know there were issues regarding Braille, I mean I don't know that many blind people and the ones I did know either knew Braille or lost their sight recently.
I'll say this to anyone who recently lost their sight though: Give yourself at least as much time to learn Braille as you did print, rather than be hard on yourself.
Yes I'm a heavy Braille user and get made fun of by some blind people because my speech rates aren't that fast but it's not my business to say what someone else should do.
The only thing is that I think in schools they should teach it to blind kids; how else are they going to read aloud in class, or read for themselves?
I will say since I started using UEB the symbols are a lot less ambiguous: most are just standard Braille but they've changed how certain symbols look so if you're looking at mixed content - has standard text and some technical symbols - it's less ambiguous. That might make life easier for learners but I'm not a teacher.
I just know if I read technical literature in my field online I don't have to turn off the translator to look at parts of it.
My only complaint regarding Braille is that whoever invented the English version of contractions took it into their heads to low-ball the sciences. Ever notice how when you were a kid they might painstakingly trace a drawing of a tree, but God forbid you should want a tactile representation of a diagram from an electronics kit book ... their reactions were like you asked for porn ...
but I digress, since I've been using UEB for a year I think maybe giving them that would make it easier, less ambiguous and more able for them to manage mixed content. It was the mixed content thing when reading with a Braille display that was really screwing up a friend of mine about ten years ago now, he'd just lost his sight and was learning Braille.
That and the contractions need to be modernized to include something besides Shakespeare and the Bible. There again, whoever did it lent even nineteenth-century science a smackdown ... just my two cents
To the last post, you raise an intersting point about English braille. When I taught braille, I was struck by the amount of religious contractions we have in English braille. The only explanation I can come up with is that one of the reasons for the invention of the Printing Press was the disemination of religious materials to the masses, and I guess someone thought the same about braille. As someone who has taught braille to adults, and again, a diehard braille user myself, I think that "functional" braille is what is really important for people. I mean, someone may not read a novel, but might want to be able to play cards. For them, 14 or so characters is sufficient. If someone wants to maintain addresses and phone numbers only, we're talking grade one uncontracted braille. Going back to the last post, the latter individual I mentioned isn't going to care what dots 456 s stands for.
Lou
I used to think my Grandpa (who went blind from diabetes) should learn Braille and that he was depending too much on my grandma to read him everything. But when me and grandma were talking about reading once and she said that she really likes to read, now I think that it's alright if that works for him. I think she would still like him to learn Braille, and I think it would be good too, but he doesn't want to learn it. But he seems to do alright anyway. He is organized and uses one of those talking medicine bottle devices, a talking glucose meter, and a cane. He also listens to the news on one of those radios with the reading services, listens to educational tapes from NLS, goes to meetings for a VI group he is in, and so he keeps mentally and socially active. He also doesn't mind asking for help when he needs it. So although I sometimes think it would be a big help for him to learn Braille, he is comfortable with where he's at and it is working for him. Hopefully not, but if Grandma goes before he does, other family members will not mind reading him things, and he also does have a scanner that he knows how to use.
For me, Braille is something I use everyday, and I would feel really limmited and like I was imposing on others to read me things if I refused to use it anymore, and that's probably how some others feel about those blind people who refuse to either learn or use Braille. Maybe in a way it is limmiting not using Braille, but it is not the absolutely only way to do things, and if a person wants to use memory or voice or other tactile ways of labeling, listening to a talking book or using a scanner or asking someone (who doesn't mind) to read something then we shouldn't judge that person for that. It's what that person feels works for them, might be their best way of taking in information, or it may be their only choice for whatever reason. Just my opinion. *smile*
i could not use braille for every day use. i can't read long articles with it, so i use a computer 99 percent of the time, braille is only used for cd's and things like that.
Agree with the last two posts. I was thinking about this issue over coffee this morning. How many of us have found tactile systems for labeling that aren't braille-based? I had a client once who had access to drug samples in the bubble packs. He labeled his VCR with pills and capsules of various sizes and shapes. I've found things like glue, toothpicks, and filing notches in knobs and controls helpful as well. If anything, I think that using other tactile labeling systems calls for a degree of creativity.
Lou
using drugs to label things is rather unusual, but there you go.
Yeah, that is pretty creative. *smile* I like to use Braille for my CD's, books and folders, my home computer's number row, and the washer and dryer (because I don't use them enough to remember the different settings and everything). But with most other things, I use non-Braille things including the little scraps that you have to take out of the spaces of those foam sticker letters. I can use the letters to write things, and using the scraps saves me having to buy separate labeling products. *smile*
I know there are extenuating circumstances which might make it difficult for some to learn Braille. Recent blindness, other physical or mental disabilities, etc. However, I believe that any blind person who is able to learn Braille should do so. So many blind people grow up using only audio, or even mostly audio, which leads to them having lousy spelling and grammar skills. That's a shame. Too much of the sighted world thinks that Braille is obselete, and it's sad how much of the blind world agrees with them. There's much more I could say here, but I need to go catch a bus.
Amen Alicia!
Learning braille doesn't equal good speller! Plenty of people who know braille are still crap at spelling!
I'm sure anyone that has been blind all through school already knew braille. I bet it is a requirement in school.
So saying reading braille has an impact on spelling isn't always the case!
If you have gone blind, like say in my situation. ... I was twenty three. So I already knew how to read and write!
I know a few people that have gone blind after there school age, and went to college, never knowing braille. they are doing awesome, I'm sure even better than some people that know braille!
Braille isn't a maker or breaker in being independent is my point! it's not fare to say there stupid or dependent just because they don't learn braille!
Like I said I did learn braille. I didn't do this so that you people wouldn't look down on me, lol! I did it because I wanted to. I don't ever use it, so I'm pretty rusty at it!
When a vision loss takes place later in life, such as someone who has already been educated, I don't think it's quite as crucial for them to learn it. As long as they work to come up with some sort of tactual method of identifying things that they need, there is not necissarily a need for braille. However, for people who are congenitally blind, I think learning braille at a young age should be emphisized. It's not so much whether you do or do not learn braille that detracts from your ability to read and write, as it is growing up with a reading and writing system of some sort. What works for you is great, but you can not base your full opinion on that. Each person's circumstances are different, and judging them based on your particular set of them is simply unfare.
That said, I strongly advocate the use of braille where appropriate. Someone who is an adult who can function fine through other means and has no desire to learn braille is one I would consider inappropriate.
Oh, and a couple of other things.
1. It's on the getting to know you because the poster asked why people who do not know braille choose not to. I suppose that's logical.
2. Most signs that have braille on them also have raised numbers and/or letters on them. So while reading braille can benefit someone in that respect, if they know the print system, they can typically just use that to find out what the sign says.
If organizations want newly blind or partially sighted people to learn Braille, they should give them something to read they ordinarily would.
As I said I'm not an instructor at all but my friend was complaining about the materials he was being given - stuff nobody that's not seriously on something could get anything out of. Some marketing materials about how inspirational some people are, like Hellen Keller et al.
So he also learning to use a Braille display I suggested he read the Onion Newspaper and if he got stuck use speech. I'm not an instructor so don't know if they do that, but it worked.
I know because when he wasn't there I switched his favorite to the Savage Love column on the Onion (now moved to Mercury), in those days had the exact same title at top, so all he'd hear was the title, stop using speech and start reading the article ... again something an instructor wouldn't do probably, but an accurate test.
Just sayin' give them something they would actually read in real life like the newspaper or periodicals in their profession or something, not propaganda / marketing.
Agreed, Robozork. When sighted or blind, learning to read print or Braille, it always helps give someone incentive if they can read something interesting to them. Otherwise, why the hell do it? I understand that learning the basics can be boring sometimes, but once someone has, then they should read material that is interesting to them to ensure they practice.
Shea, you fall under one of the extenuating circumstances I mentioned in my previous post. I know you were already educated before you went blind, thus you can still read and write normally, as can many who are blinded later in life. Still, I feel that, if physically and/or mentally possible, they should be taught Braille as their new system of reading. How someone chooses to use it after being taught is their own business.
However, I still have very strong feelings on this issue, particuarly as it pertains to the education of blind children. If a sighted child was only raised on audio books in school and for recreational reading, etc, and never learned to read print, they would be considered illiterate. Generally schools will not stand for that. They will not let children advance grade levels without good, or at least fair reading and writing skills. Why should it be any different for a blind child? Yet, somehow, the educational system thinks this is okay, teaching a blind child only with audio books, screen readers, and so forth, but not Braille. that blind child is therefore just as illiterate as the sighted child who does not learn print.
I also understand that for some, reading is a strong point, and a pleasure, whereas for others, it is not one of their favored activities. Again, that can also be said of sighted people. But the fact is, sighted children get taught to read, and so should we.
Hi,
I used to only really ever use braille all the time up until fairly recently when I was at university and I had handouts for class, and I also used to take notes on my braillelite. However I did all the important work such as the assignments on my computer. I started to learn braille at the age of 5 or so and the way in which I was taught was extremely good, since when it came to spelling, I'd learn the word in grade 1, and in grade 2. So not only did I know the shorthand I suppose you could call it, I knew how to spell things properly, and so I wasn't at any disadvantage what so ever in comparison to my sighted class mates. I think that because I learnt braille in mainstream, my teachers were more conscious about me having exactly the same knowledge when it came to spelling and reading and writing as my sighted classmates, and rightly so. I have always been a reasonably good speller, but never an amazing braillest, especially when I write fast, I tend to make a lot of mistakes. When I was in secondary school, it was a school for the blind, and I asked people about braille and stuff, and some of them had been there since the age of 5 so had learnt braille there, but how they were taught seemed despicable to me. A student told me that they of course learnt grade 1 and 2, but when it came to spelling, they only learnt the grade 2 form of a word and not the grade 1. I was never sure if this was correct or some sort of exaggeration on their part, but having looked at the way some blind people spell, it does actually make me wonder how they learnt to spell, if they only learnt to spell a word in its grade 2 form when learning braille, then how the hell can anyone learn to spell accurately? They can't. That's probably why some blind people can't spell very well. As for people having to learn braille, I think blind students in school should learn it, simply because it makes class participation easier for them, such as reading aloud etc. But as for adults or people later in life who have lost their sight, why should they bother if they don't want to? Losing one's sight must be traumatic enough without having the added bonus of learning a whole new code in communication, a computer is much easier. I don't use braile every day, in fact hardly at all, since everything I do is on the computer. As for labelling stuff up in braille, it doesn't happpen, I can't even use that stupid antiquated-looking stiliss thing, excuse the spelling--you know the machine you use to write labels where you basically write backwards, weird in my opinion. and as for using a Perkins to do it, I can't cut in a straight line, so can't cut the sticky labels correctly to do it, whenever I urgently need to label something which is extremely rare, (since I'm usually really good at knowing what something is by touch etc), I usually ask a family member to cut it for me, since I only like ever label something like once a year, and don't have the patience to learn how to cut correctly in a straight line since I have other ways of coping when needing to know what stuff is. As for CD's, they don't get labelled, since they're extracted straight on to my computer, and in recent years I download everything I want anyway, so problem sorted.
Tara.
Tara, you bring up something interesting. When I was in school, I was only allowed to use grade 1 on spelling tests as well. It used to annoy the hell out of me as a kid, but now I'm extremely grateful they did it that way. I, too, was mainstreamed, and so, like you, their was an emphasis on me keeping up with my sighted peers, and again, I'm eternally grateful that there was.
I was one of those fortunate enough to learn braille at an early age, and love to read. however, that doesn't give me the right to criticize others for their choices. what works for one person, may not work for another; that's just the way life is. while I'd hope that every blind person who's able to learn braille do so, I wouldn't look down on them if they choose not to.
TARA< AS MUCH AS I love braille, I'm a bad speller. f7 is one of my favorite keys on the computer, not that I rely on it exclusively. When I learned braille, we were taught that there was the long way and the short way of writing words. Well, I learned the long way long enough to get through the spelling tests, and forgot many words until I had to spell them verbally, or write them 500 times or so, or I was harrassed about it by sighted people when I typed my work. My spelling has come a far way, but it isn't my strong suit. The point of this is that as you said, all blind people who know braille aren't necessarilly good spellers.
Lou
hi all,
James here. this is an interesting topic.
As far as learning Braille is concerned, I believe that blind ppl need all the options for success available to them. Braille is one of those options along with computers, recorders, etc.
just food for thought:
90% of employed blind ppl today use Braille to some extent. No one is saying that you can't live without it and be successful, but it gives you options. No one's saying you can't be successful without finishing high school either, but most ppl wouldn't recommend not finishing.
For some adults I've worked with, they physically can't feel the braille dots b/c of diabetic neuropathy. These ppl I teach braille writing to and they then use it to write on electronic notetakers such as the BrailleNote series.
Again, KC8PNL has demonstrated that he really isn't blind. Come on, we all know that blind people have, well, like, sixth sense that we have developed in order to compensate for our darkness. Only the sighted people would think in such a clinical and academic terms; talking about diabetic neuropathy and whatnot. Has anyone out here actually know or met KC8PNL to varify that he is not sighted? Yeah, that's what I thought! For all I know, he could even be a girl who resembles the looks of Pamela Anderson! But that's not what we're talking about.
The point is, if you are truly blind, like me, who is super professional blind, we use our extra senses to drive cars, read street signs, know how a girl looks by touching her face, shoot guns by sound location, etc. Speaking of which, why don't you, KC8PNL, let me touch your face so that I know what you look like?
I reckon I was right not wanting to learn Braille, but kind of had to learn it anyway when I started boarding at RLSB Dorton House shortly before I turned 5 and well, you just learnt it as standard as a way of communicating, but it does nothing, for spelling and Grammar, writing letters, calculations, messages, forms Etc Etc, it's just so different to what the rest of the sighted world uses, print. Braille is like a very back to front form of print, which the rest of the world would frown upon. For example, I was constantly getting work back from teachers at both Dorton and New College Worcester where I attended Secondary School with marks out of 10 for both Grammar and for my not so good spelling, due to the fact that Braille is always, always, abreviated, there are contractions and things where you don't expect them to be, contractions and other symbols which I feel, weren't ever necessary and just result in very poor spelling and grammar for any unfortunate braille user like myself who got beyond grade 1 and cracked grade 2. If, as people have mentioned, there is in fact a grade 3, I don't want to know what that's like. I'm trying my damnedest to get Braille out of my life now for those very reasons.
Jen.
Well Ms. Magic, with all due respect, I wouldn't blame braille for what you've experienced. Instead, I would blame your teachers. Yes, it is true that braille words are contracted to save time and space, but it would be the responsibility of the teacher who is teaching you the braille to make sure that you understand what those contractions stand for. Teachers of visually impaired children must take into consideration that when you are working with a child who is five or six or seven or whatever years old, you have to explain the concept behind the abbreviation and not just teach P is for people and Y is for you. And as far as calculation and whatnot, personally, I don't think that I would have been able to take my calculus in high school if I didn't have my books in braille. I know some people who took math classes without braille, but for me, I need to see the formula in order for me to understand.
to the person trying to get braille out of their life, I'm very sorry to hear you feel that way. I'm thankful braille exists, and don't know where I'd be without it.
Wow, Little Smoky can make a serious board post! I'm impressed! *Grin* And, Smoky, I actually have met KC8PNL in person, and he is indeed male, and blind, I assure you.
Jen, your post just shows you had an unfortunate experience with Braille, and very lousy teachers.
Hey Sister Dawn, I think I was experiencing a moment of insanity when I made that serious post. Now that I'm sane, let's go back to the topic at hand. Fine, perhaps, maybe, KC8PNL is blind. But are you sure he is a he and not a she? I mean, are you sure it wasn't just a huge camel toe?
I learned braille in the thrird grade soon after I lost my eyesight. I too have bad spelling because I was tought grade two but wasn't always told how to spell the actual word. I find it now harder on me now that I am in college because it destracts me while i am taking notes in class trying to figure out how to spell half the words I am wrighting on my laptop. When the teacher is wrighting things on the board I often find myself asking them to spell out words so I am able to wright them and not struggle so much later to spell check my notes. I also love knowing how to read braille because it is so helpful in math class to wright down the problems then read it to work it. andwhen I go shopping for my food I wright out my list in braille and tell Beth, the lady who helps me in the store what I want. I do not like the idea of prenting out a list and her doing all the reading adn grabbing. I like to know what is going on and have full control ofer what it is I am buying and not buying to. So if I at the last minue change my ideas of what is on my list I will know and beable to deside without have Beth read my list back to me. Yeah she might like it if she has a list of her own but I don't own a printer to give her one right now. any how I like to go up and down the iles and know what is around instead of her dragging me from one thing to another thing that is on my list. Its helps to decide what I might be intereted in next time I go. and I am more informed about whats in the store. But back to the subject. Reading braille I think can be a grate advantage for you, it defently couldn't hurt ay. What about reading what buttons are whitch in an elevator? I don't have a tun of things brailled nor do I really read braille much in my every day life, but it is more of an advantage then a disadvantage in my over all life.
My biggest problem with English braille is the insistance on everything being delivered in Grade II. It seems impossible to learn the braille symbols without instantly learning all the short hand notations and contractions that follow it, which can be distracting and unhelpful at first. I think Grade II is a great tool, increases speed and decreases the paper usage, but for a beginner there really should be easy access to simple non contracted braille.
I read an article in the New York Times that pointed out people who only used audio rather than braille had markedly lower brain function in some areas associated with reading than those who used braille (that is, I believe, mostly in people who grew up with no active reading, so not people who learnt to read and lost sight later in life).
I will have to dig up the article.
Braille is also good if one wishes to learn foreign languages, to look at words and get a feel for them rather than relying on tapes and memory.
Of course everyone is different and there are many ways of achieving success, so one can't put a blanket judgement on each person's unwillingness to learn braille without putting it in perspective.
But I think it is a huge advantage to learn and use it, personally.
ok. i learned braille. smiles. i think it just depends on people. and there fefeelings. plus i also use audible books. and other tipes of tecnolegy also.